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Episode 140: Twintuition 2 - Lisa's Twin Sara is Back on the Podcast!

She's back! In honor of their birthday week, Lisa invited twin sister Sara back on the show for another fun conversation. Lisa and Sara talk about escape rooms, Sara's non-outdoorsiness, risk taking, and Sara's snowmobiling experiences. This one will make you smile for sure!

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Episode Transcript

Lisa: Welcome to Outside By Design. This is the podcast about the intersection of business and creativity in the outdoor industry. And today we have a very exciting episode because… this is Lisa and for fun, I brought back our most popular guest of all time in Outside By Design history. And that is my twin sister, Sara.

Sara: Hello, everybody.

Lisa: She's back.

Sara: I like that I'm the most popular guest when I have nothing to do with business, nature, or creativity like you do, but here I am.

Lisa: Yeah. Here you are. We recorded an episode… two years ago, I think. And we talked about nature. It was very popular. You referred to it as ‘the nature,’ which I don't know if you knew you were doing. And that was, that was well received by our outdoor community. And it's been our most downloaded episode.

Sara: Well, that's silly, but hello, everybody.

Lisa: We're back. And we have some special news because today is Monday and in two days, it's our birthday.

Sara: It's true. We're going to be 35.

Lisa: That sounds really old.

Sara: But not really in the scheme of life.

Lisa: Yeah. 35. What do you think the average life expectancy for women is now?

Sara: It's gotta be over 70. 81.

Lisa: 78.79. So.

Sara: That was pretty good. I was a good guesser.

Lisa: I guess we're not quite, middle-aged.

Sara: Not at all.

Lisa: Are you going to have a midlife crisis?

Sara: No, I feel like at one point I may have already had… I couldn't call it mid-life cause I was so young, so I called it my third life. One-third life crisis.

Lisa: What did you do? Wh- okay. What instigated your one third life crisis? And what did you do?

Sara: It really wasn't a crisis at all. I just made a lot of changes in my life. So I jokingly said, because it was one third of my life. I was just making some changes.

Lisa: I think that you get to… I don't know if we've ever talked about this. I think that in life you get to completely blow up your life three times. Like, I think you can make little changes, but I think you get three huge, absolute shatter blow ups.

Sara: This sounds like one third life crises.

Lisa: Did you… have you, how many of you used?

Sara: I guess just one. We're only one third. Maybe.

Lisa: I think I've used two of mine.

Sara: What?

Lisa: Yeah.

Sara: Okay.

Lisa: So I only get one more.

Sara: Maybe you get nine. You're like a kitten.

Lisa: Oh, I forgot to ask you the first question we ask every guest.

Sara: Oh.

Lisa: To describe where you are and what you're looking at.

Sara: Well, I'm currently in my house and I'm looking at… a table, nothing exciting over here. Got some board games on this table.

Lisa: Do you have any books about mathematics?

Sara: Um, no, but I have some board games that are like escape room games in a box. Have you ever done an escape room?

Lisa: No.

Sara: Okay.

Lisa: What are they?

Sara: Well, to me, it's as much fun as you would have in nature.

[Lisa laughs]

Sara: It's like puzzles and mysteries. So escape rooms are places you actually go to, and then they say that they lock you in the room, but you're not really locked in. But then you have an hour, usually, to solve a bunch of clues and riddles and get out. So it's like an interactive puzzle, essentially.

Lisa: What if you want to leave?

Sara: I don't know why you would. It's very fun.

[Lisa laughs]

Sara: But when everything was shut down the last couple of years, I got really into board games that are like escape room style board games. There's a bunch of different brands. And I like to play them. So that's what's on my table right now, a couple of escape rooms, escape room board games.

Lisa: Speaking of escape rooms, I'm also in your house. [laughs]

Sara: Yeah, you are.

Lisa: I'm in your basement.

Sara: That is true. Surprise. We're in the same place for our birthday.

Lisa: Yeah. And we have to record this on two separate tracks, so that Iris can edit out all my tapping. Iris said as soon as I start talking, it's like, I start playing the drums with like my notebook. And so she likes to delete all my tracks when I talk or when I'm listening and talking, I guess, I don't know. Anyway, we had to record on separate tracks. So we had to be in different rooms on different computers.

Sara: That is true.

Lisa: So I'm in your basement.

Sara: It's a great place to be. I'm happy you're here.

Lisa: What should we do on our birthday? Wait, we should tell our listeners about how we trade off birthdays.

Sara: We should. So it's my birthday this year, don't be confused, because we're twins. But we trade off whose birthday it is as far as the decision-making goes. So, misleading - because when I say I have the odd years, people might say, but it's 2022. That's even. But it's because we're 35 and that's odd. So it's my birthday on all the odd birthdays. And it's her birthday on all the even birthdays. So that means I get to pick where we go to dinner or what we have for dessert or something like that. It's my pick.

Lisa: If it were my pick, we would spend it in nature.

Sara: Well… if it was my pick we'd spend it playing an escape room game.

Lisa: [laughs] Is that what we’re doing?

Sara: No, but we could maybe go for a bike ride, but not in the mountains. We can just go for a bike ride in the street.

Lisa: To get ice cream?

Sara: To get ice cream. Bike rides with a purpose.

Lisa: Today when I was leaving to go mountain biking, you suggested I could just ride in the street.

Sara: I did. I said, “you don't need to go all the way to the mountains. You could just ride in the street, maybe go get some ice cream.” Sounded logical. Instead you drove half an hour to the foothills to ride your bike and then drove home. But I hope you had a great time.

Lisa: And then you called me. Because you were worried.

Sara: Well, it was getting very stormy. The wind was kicking up and I wanted to make sure you were okay because you were mountain biking alone in nature! And if something had happened and you were in a no cell service range, I wanted to make sure that you were accounted for.

Lisa: But then you watched my Instagram stories and knew I was fine.

Sara: That's how I know. If I'm not sure where you are, ‘cause I haven't heard from you, I just watch Instagram and go, “oh, she's fine.” And then I'll watch that you post and I'll be like, oh, she just posted 15 seconds ago. So I'll think this is my moment to call or text. Rejected.

[Lisa laughs]

Sara: You're a busy lady. It must be a lot, you know, being in nature so much running a business, changing the world.

Lisa: Grammin’.

Sara: Yeah. Instagram.

Lisa: Are you on TikTok?

Sara: I'm not on TikTok. I'm… I kind of feel like I missed my moment for TikTok.

Lisa: [laughs] I feel like we would have thrived.

Sara: That's what I'm saying. Like, I feel like if TikTok had been around, slash we had been allowed to be on social media at that age. ‘Cause it wasn't around, so.

Lisa: It wasn't invented.

Sara: Who knows. I feel like we would have really made it big with all our… we made a lot of videos of just like fun, funny things. I feel like you really wanted to be on SNL for a long time and like make videos. So we made lots of like short videos and music videos. We had a lot of like circus tricks. We could walk on stilts and juggle.

Lisa: It's true. When you're a twin you're really good at - well, I'm saying ‘you’ as if everyone knows - in our experience, being a twin means that we can do a lot of really cool, like double activities.

Sara: Yeah. ‘Cause there's two of us.

Lisa: And we're really good at like…

Sara: The tumble buggy.

Lisa: Yeah. The tumble buggy! [laughs] We’re really good at the tumble buggy.

Sara: If you’re not sure what that means, find a Klutz book from 1996 and you will learn how to do the tumble buggy. It’s basically like a two person somersault thing.

Lisa: Yeah. We also are really good at strange competitions, such as like how many times you can bounce on a large exercise ball.

Sara: Yeah. And now I saw recently, again, I'm not on the TikTok, but I saw that… it shows up in like the reels, cause I'm on Facebook, you know, old lady. And I'll see little things and there's all these people doing tricks on exercise balls, like Guinness book of world records stuff. And like, we made that up, I'm pretty sure.

Lisa: We could have had that Guinness book of world records.

Sara: We've made up a lot of things and then they suddenly get famous, but that's fine.

Lisa: It’s fine.

[ad break]

Lisa: I have a really distinct memory of - well, did you know that when I first went to CSU, I was in, like, pre-med?

Sara: No.

Lisa: Yeah. That's what I was in. And like…

Sara: Why?

Lisa: I don't remember, but I distinctly remember having a conversation with dad and he was like, “What, you think you're just going to make videos for a living?” Like, 'cause in high school, I was so obsessed with making fun videos with my friends, which was like, not that common in 2003 and 2004 and 2005. And yeah, he was like, “What, you think you're just going to make videos for a living?”

Sara: And then TikTok happened.

Lisa: And then I'm like, yeah, that's all we do is make commercials.

Sara: Well, I've had many people tell me that I should start a TikTok where I do quick math explanations. So I’d be like, you want to see the Pythagorean theorem? And then I do a quick little here's the Pythagorean theorem or whatever it is.

Lisa: Could you do one?

Sara: I don't know. Do you think people would watch that? I'm not sure that they would. They seem to like things like people doing Guinness book tricks.

Lisa: Okay. What if you explain the Pythagorean theorem while, like, walking on your hands?

Sara: I'm not sure that would work for me, but.

Lisa: Or if you did it like, while…

Sara: I don't know, there's just a lot of videos in education right now where people are like, they've really made a name for themselves in education as the TikToker and influencer. And I don't have any desire to be that, currently, but it's interesting. ‘Cause I feel like if TikTok had been around like a decade ago, I probably would have very much enjoyed that.

Lisa: You would have killed it.

Sara: Well, maybe someday.

Lisa: Yeah. Have you learned anything about nature from it, from a video, from like a TikTok style video?

Sara: Um, no, but I secondhand watch, sometimes, snowmobiling videos on TikTok. And I think, “that looks cold.”

Lisa: How do you get them second hand? It's like a secondhand smoke.

Sara: Oh, it's because my husband is watching them. So then I see them. ‘Cause he really likes to snowmobile. So I feel like, you know, I've gone snowmobiling since the last podcast. That's new.

Lisa: Oh, let's talk about it. How's your snowmobiling going?

Sara: Well I've gone a total of five times in two years and I cried four of them.

Lisa: Why did you cry?

Sara: It's very scary.

Lisa: [laughs] Yeah, it is. I cry sometimes too.

Sara: I did not cry this last time, because it was very hot and the snow was really bad and we went very slow all day. And like the big thing was trying not to overheat the sleds. So it was really low key. But I did get a little bit stuck trying to go around a fallen tree. So I tried to go around and then I hit the gas and I full throttled it and I just jumped off. But then I jumped into the tree log. Now I have a scar on my leg.

Lisa: Whoa!

Sara: I know, from that tree log.

Lisa: I didn't know that, what happened to the sled?

Sara: Well, I wear one of those wrist keys. I don't know what they're called. So when I jumped off it stopped it, you know?

Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. That's- so it just stopped. It didn't get stuck.

Sara: No.

Lisa: But you just jumped into a tree?

Sara: Well, it was a fallen tree, like a log.

Lisa: Okay.

Sara: On the ground. And then it gets worse because, [laughs] oh man, we we're there with some family members and somebody was trying to help me. So I actually like jumped basically on top of him into the tree and I drove the sled at him. It was horrible, but I didn't cry that time. It was a good day. So just that one incident.

Lisa: You just like spider monkeyed him?

Sara: Well, I was trying… I don't know what happened. It happened very quickly. It was like too much, but I'm pretty amateur. The sled that I'm riding is 55 times too big for me. It's got a really big track and it's got a lot of power and I'm not a professional yet. I am a beginner. But you use the equipment that you have. So I'm learning.

Lisa: It's a good metaphor for life.

Sara: Yeah. Yeah. Just do the best you can, but it's, um, it's been okay. I've had a fun time learning something new. I like learning new things. But, you know, it's cold.

Lisa: Mhmm. Did you know I crashed my snowmobile into a tree in Crested Butte this year?

Sara: Why, why would you do that?

Lisa: Well I didn't mean to, in the same way that you didn't mean to jump into the log, but I smashed my snowmobile so hard I cracked my tunnel, which is technically like totalling a sled. But then I called up my buddy Tucker and he welded it and.

Sara: Oh, I kind of remember the welding story.

Lisa: Yeah. So far so good. Everything’s fine.

Sara: Well, that's good.

Lisa: I hit that tree real hard.

Sara: I'm glad you're okay. That could be very dangerous.

Lisa: Yeah.

Sara: Were you alone in nature or did you have someone with you?

Lisa: I always have someone very competent with me in the backcountry.

Sara: Okay, good. That's what I wanted to hear because I'm a beginner, so I don't go in nature by myself.

Lisa: Do you ever go in nature by yourself?

Sara: Well, like hiking on like a trail I know well, that's fine, but I wouldn't go climb a mountain I don't know by myself. That sounds dangerous. I'd hike in the foothills around here.

Lisa: Yeah.

Sara: Yeah. Like totally comfortable, dog friendly, daytime, that kind of stuff. But I wouldn't want to get somewhere where I couldn't get, get out or the terrain got weird. Safety first.

Lisa: Mhmm. That's good. I do a lot of things alone in nature.

Sara: I know. That's because you are a strong, independent woman.

Lisa: It's true. [laughs]

Sara: I'm also a strong, independent woman. I just don't like nature that much.

Lisa: Where do you think that you become, or where do you think that your strong, independent womanness shows up the most?

Sara: That I'm very self-sufficient, I think, probably. I'm good at fixing things and problem solving.

Lisa: Name something that you've fixed recently. I think, I agree with you.

Sara: Well, during this podcast, I couldn't get my headset to work. Fixed it. That was a good one.

Lisa: It's good.

Sara: I painted, I painted a room in my house and I had to patch a wall. That doesn't look great, but I did it.

Lisa: Yeah, it's gonna look great when you paint it.

Sara: Yeah, so it's fine.

Lisa: But you also, you love fishing.

Sara: I do. That's my kind of nature.

Lisa: Okay. What's the difference between mountain by hand fishing?

Sara: Well in mountain biking you could flip over the handlebars and crack your face, like, right open. You could be toothless by the end of the mountain biking day.

Lisa: [laughs] Yeah.

Sara: Yeah. Doesn't happen in fishing. In fishing you just do a lot of sitting, looking at the water, breathing in the smell of lake. And I don't know. It's nice.

Lisa: I am actually… like I don't want to get caught with a hook.

Sara: Well, I don't think it happens often, only when you're a child and your brother hooks your arm. Other than that, it hasn't happened to me many times.

Lisa: Just that once.

Sara: That was the worst one.

Lisa: Years ago, my buddy Ty Bacon took me fly fishing in Montana and I caught him in the chest with a hook. It was like pffft, and then the sound was awful. It was like pfffft.

Sara: Yeah. Fly fishing is difficult.

Lisa: Yeah. I caught my friend Ty Bacon.

Sara: Shout out to Ty Bacon.

Lisa: Thanks. Thanks for still talking to me, Ty.

Sara: I hope your chest is okay.

[Lisa laughs]

Sara: You probably have a scar. That's what nature does, it gives us memories.

Lisa: Do you have a lot of nature memories?

Sara: No, but that one in my shin, when I jumped onto the log, that's the most recent one.

Lisa: That's a good one.

Sara: Yeah.

Lisa: That's a good one. I have a lot of, I have a lot of nature memories and head injuries and broken bones.

Sara: Maybe the more you love nature, the more nature memories you have. Scar-wise.

Lisa: We have a really different relationship to risk-taking.

Sara: We do. I like 0% risk.

Lisa: Right? Because like entrepreneurship is terrifying and like, I don't know, my bank account has gone up. It's gone down. It's been all over the place and I always have to figure it out because the only thing that's predictable is like, me. And how I react to things. Everything else I can just kind of make up on the fly.

Sara: I don't like any risk whatsoever. I like it to be consistent and predictable. Nothing like a good day with a good schedule.

Lisa: [laughs] Describe, describe your perfect day.

Sara: Well… I was going to quote Miss Congeniality, but I won't.

Lisa: Oh, my gosh, Tess who works at WHEELIE loves that joke.

Sara: It’s a good one.

Lisa: April 25th.

Sara: Uh huh. April 25th, just a late jacket. Um, no, I don't know what my perfect day would be, but it would probably, it would probably have some sort of schedule or routine. I have, I like routines and stuff. I'm at a fun point right now. ‘Cause I'm on a transition cause it's almost summer break. So then my schedule changes.

Lisa: Okay. So describe your perfect day during summer break, where you can do what you can do, literally, whatever you want.

Sara: This is also difficult because this is the first summer break where I am not working at a restaurant. Usually I have a summer job. So this is… I'm going rogue here. I don't even know what I'm going to do in the summer. I'll probably wake up and work out and maybe take the dogs on a walk. And then I'm moving this summer. So I'll probably be doing a lot of moving stuff with the rest of my time. So this is an off summer. I'm not good at a scheduled summer right now.

[ad break]

Lisa: What's the craziest thing you've ever done?

Sara: That's difficult. I don't know. Risk in general, I don't think I take a lot of risks.

Lisa: You have a full tattoo sleeve.

Sara: Is that risky?

Lisa: I don’t know. You're scared of needles.

Sara: I am scared of needles.

Lisa: I thought that was pretty baller that you're scared of needles, but that you were like, I'm going to get a tattoo. And then you went full send.

Sara: Well, there's only one tattoo I've wanted, and it’s this full arm sleeve, so. All or nothing. Commit hard.

Lisa: It's of your creation though. You invented everything.

Sara: Well, I had the idea of it, but then the tattoo artist is the creative one who got to really put his own spin on it.

Lisa: That's cool.

Sara: Yeah.

Lisa: It looks amazing.

Sara: Thanks. It does look really good, I think. But it's almost done. Just a little to go.

Lisa: Yeah, it's cool. I think, I think that's… I don't have any tattoos.

Sara: Yet.

Lisa: Yeah. Yet.

Sara: Maybe you will someday.

Lisa: I don't know. I feel like I change my mind enough that I don't… you're very consistent in what you like, you know, like you'll still like that tattoo in 20 years.

Sara: I hope so. We'll find out.

Lisa: You definitely will. And then, you know, I don't know. I also would probably want my own art on my body and I don't know if I… you know, I, when I look at my own heart, I just want to work on it constantly. It's never quite done.

Sara: That's true. You’re an artist. You know, that's something else I got into a little bit over the last couple of years was I tried to do some painting. Several times.

Lisa: How’d it go?

Sara: Do you remember? I called you to tell you that we were painting.

Lisa: Yes I do. It was very exciting.

Sara: Yeah. I was like, look, I'm trying to paint. Didn't go great. But I tried a couple times. I did like two or three paintings.

Lisa: Yeah.

Sara: It was tricky.

Lisa: I thought you did amazing.

Sara: Thanks. I'm not sure that that is going to be my creative outlet.

Lisa: But when we, when we were little, you wanted to be an artist.

Sara: I did. And then you did a better job of it. So now that's kind of your thing.

Lisa: [laughs] There’s not enough room on this planet for two artists.

Sara: Nope. Just room for the one of them.

Lisa: Aww.

Sara: Well, now you want to do it all. Originally, the plan was you were going to write a book and I was going to illustrate it.

Lisa: Yeah.

Sara: Now you probably want to write the book and illustrate it. That's fine. I'll step back and watch. I'll read it. I'll be your biggest fan.

Lisa: I am your biggest fan.

Sara: I'll be, remember my job was to type the stories that you wrote on a computer.

Lisa: Yes. I hand wrote an entire novel and you typed it.

Sara: I typed the whole thing. And I made it into a screenplay.

Lisa: Yeah.

Sara: You wrote it as a regular story, but then I made it into a screenplay with your help. I typed it.

Lisa: Typed it. I had wrote that, it took like two notebooks handwritten.

Sara: It was great. It was called… can I tell them about it?

Lisa: Sure.

Sara: It was called…

Lisa: How old were we?

Sara: Uh, middle school.

Lisa: Sixteen?

Sara: No, middle school. It's called Laura's Camp Adventure. I think that Laura really means Lisa.

Lisa: [laughs] Yeah.

Sara: It’s fine. Figured it out, all these years later. We never went to summer camp as children and I think it was a story that was based on probably movies and stories from other friends who had gone to summer camp. And it was what you created your version of summer camp to be.

So it was called Laura's Camp Adventure, and we thought it was going to be big on like TV channels that were on cable that we did not have. We thought it was going to make it big. And then by the time we finished it, typing it, and making it, we were then too old to be the stars in it. ‘Cause I think originally the plan was we were going to also star in this. We were going to be famous, you know, actresses.

Lisa: I think you were going to be in it. And I don't think I was going to cast myself.

Sara: No, you were, but then, but then we were too old. So then we were going to be cast as the camp counselors.

Lisa: The premise of Laura's Camp Adventure was that she goes to summer camp with her friends, and then they play a bunch of pranks and they get kicked out of camp, but they don't want their parents to find out. So they camp in the woods outside of camp.

Sara: Yeah, it was great.

Lisa: And they find a shed of, they find a shed of fireworks. I believe.

Sara: That was the grand finale. You're basically ruining the end of the story.

Lisa: [laughs] Well.

Sara: You started this in elementary school, because I remember that every character was the same letter.

Lisa: Oh. Right.

Sara: So like we had friends that were, you know, like Laura/Lisa, yeah. So everybody had a different name. So several of our friends were in the story.

Lisa: It was beautiful.

Sara: It was really great.

Lisa: I can't believe he typed my handwritten story. [laughs]

Sara: Yeah, I believe in you, I will type your handwritten story any day.

Lisa: Thank you. I will copy your math homework any day, too. That's how much I believe in you and trust you, too.

Sara: Thank you. It was correct. So, good job.

Lisa: It was always correct.

Sara: Mostly.

Lisa: Yeah. It’s true.

Sara: Well, maybe someday you can publish Laura's Camp Adventure as like a children's chapter book, or maybe you could still sell that to a TV channel that might want to pick it up some day. Now we could be the parents that are dropping the children off. We can still be in it. The dream is not over.

Lisa: Ugh. We're so old.

Sara: We are not.

Lisa: Ugh. [laughs] I'm having a bit of a hard time with 35.

Sara: It's just such a fun number.

Lisa: Because it rhymes with alive, which we are for now.

Sara: No, I just like he number 35.

Lisa: Oh.

Sara: That's us.

Lisa: Well, this has been a really good episode. Is there anything else you'd like to tell our audience of outdoor creative?

Sara: Congratulations for liking nature. Keep it up. Keep being creative, hopefully nature inspires you. Inspires you to write that book about a camp adventure in nature, or to go on that adventure mountain biking and not cracking your face open. I hope you like nature forever. ‘Cause you already do.

Lisa: I'd like to do a speed round really fast, where I say the name of a brand and you say the first thing you think of.

Sara: Okay.

Lisa: So, are you ready?

Sara: I’m ready.

Lisa: The North Face.

Sara: Running. Like that? Did I do it right?

Lisa: You can say running, or you can say, you know, like if you think it's for old people or young people, or if you think it's cool, or if you think it's green, you can say whatever you want. It doesn't have to be the sport.

Sara: Oh, okay. Well, okay. Try again.

Lisa: Okay. The North Face.

Sara: Warm clothes.

Lisa: Nice. Marmot.

Sara: Rock climbing.

Lisa: Mammut.

Sara: Never heard of it.

Lisa: Burton.

Sara: My first snowboard was a Burton feather.

Lisa: Cool. Shredly.

Sara: Shorts.

Lisa: Right on!

Sara: I don't know anything. I don't know anything about them, but they're the shorts that you like, you sent me, you sent me some.

Lisa: Yeah. Um, Specialized.

Sara: Bicycle

Lisa: Trek.

Sara: Bicycle.

Lisa: Nice.

Sara: Magna.

Lisa: Oh yeah. Magna.

Sara. Bicycle! Thank you.

Lisa: [laughs] Do you still have the magnet?

Sara: I do.

Lisa: Nice. We should take it for a rip.

Sara: It needs a little work, but I bet you could do a tune-up.

Lisa: I could do a tune-up. We're going to do three more brands where you get to say what you think of it. Solomon.

Sara: Skis. Is that right?

Lisa: Yeah, that's right.

Sara: Okay. I thought so.

Lisa: Five Ten.

Sara: Tactical gear.

Lisa: [laughs] Gore-Tex.

Sara: Waterproof.

Lisa: Polartec.

Sara: Polar fleece.

Lisa: Nice.

Sara: Was that right too?

Lisa: Yeah. That's amazing. You're basically an outdoors woman.

Sara: Yeah. I mean, almost. Except I got one, I got one wrong.

Lisa: Which one?

Sara: I was thinking of Five Eleven.

Lisa: Oh, Five Ten is like bike shoes and climbing shoes.

Sara: Yeah. I realized that after I said it. But I was thinking of Five Eleven, sorry.

Lisa: Wow.

Sara: Close. Two brands with a very close number system.

Lisa: Uh, 5/11 is our birthday.

Sara: I know. Happy birthday.

Lisa: Happy birthday to you.

Sara: I'll pick, I'll pick somewhere vegetarian for dinner.

Lisa: Thank you. I love you very much.

Sara: Love you too. Bye everybody!

Lisa: Bye.

Sara: Bye.


Iris: Thank you so much for tuning in to Outside by Design. This show is produced by WHEELIE. You can find us at our website, You can also visit To find more episodes, transcripts show notes and our affiliate partners. We're on Instagram at @wheeliecreative. Please subscribe, leave a five-star review on your podcast app and share this podcast with a friend who you think might enjoy listening.

With that, I'm Iris. Thanks for being here.

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