Episode 44: Persistence, Encouragement, Evolution with Georgia Grace Edwards
Get ready for the pants revolution. One of the most unique businesses we've had on the podcast, this week's guest is Georgia Grace Edwards, co-founder of SheFly Apparel. The women of SheFly aim to change the way women experience the outdoors through persistence, encouragement, and evolution. Georgia Grace talks about entrepreneurship, designing for equality, and how there's room for improvement in women's wear.
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Iris: Hello Outside by Design listeners!
Lisa: What's going on all you creative souls? Welcome back to another week of enthralling conversation about the word revolution.
Iris: This week we have... probably our most unique guest and business that we've ever had on the show. We have Georgia Edwards from SheFly. And she's actually the farthest away recording I think we've ever done.
Lisa: Yes. She was in…
Iris: The Czech Republic.
Lisa: She was in the Czech Republic while we spoke.
Iris: Recording all the way from the Czech Republic. Technology is a wonder.
Lisa: Yeah, and Georgia is one of three human beings who started SheFly, which is a company that is reinventing pants to make it easier for women to pee outside.
Iris: Yeah, and I think Georgia explains the motivation behind SheFly and their revolutionary pants design really well in this episode. So if you have ever had an accident in the outdoors, which, according to their studies, one in three women have had a bad bathroom experience in the outdoors.
Lisa: You get to listen to mine if you listen to the whole podcast.
Iris: It's true. Lisa has a great story. So this is something really relatable that almost every single woman who goes outside has an experience with.
Lisa: Peeing into their own shoe or something.
Iris: [laughs] and no one ever talks about it, which is crazy! And Georgia and her team with SheFly are trying to make a difference. So let's hear what Georgia has to say.
Lisa: Georgia, thank you so much for being here.
Georgia Grace: Thank you so much for having us.
Lisa: And the first question we asked everyone is to describe where you are in the country and what you're looking at.
Georgia Grace: Hmm great question. So the sun has unfortunately just set over here in the Czech Republic. Although good news, today was the first Sunset after 5 p.m. Since October, I think, so there is a light at the end of the tunnel. But the usual view from my flat here is some wooded Hills and I'm in the Bohemian Paradise region of the Czech Republic. So it's really beautiful. There's two castles I can see from my window and some ivy growing on the walls across from me. And as of today, we have a light dusting of snow, so it’s pretty ideal.
Lisa: Wait so you live over there?
Georgia Grace: I am just living over here for the year. I'm on a Fulbright scholarship.
Lisa: Wow, what does that entail?
Georgia Grace: So I am here teaching English at a business Academy.
Lisa: That's really awesome. I did not know that, I did not know I would be talking to you while you were in the Czech Republic.
Georgia Grace: [laughs] It's the only reason I wasn't at Outdoor Retailer this pasttime, but I'm hoping to make it to the one in June possibly.
Lisa: So cool. So we put you on the podcast with our theme of the month during the month of Revolution, and that's because you are part of this team that has invented something amazing. So tell us about SheFly and your revolutionary idea.
Georgia Grace: Sure, we love that Revolution is the theme this month because that is something we actually talk about a lot about as a team, how we're trying to create a Zipper Revolution and how we're pants pioneers. And... Basically, SheFly, our mission is to promote equality and inclusivity in the outdoors, and we're trying to do that through thoughtful and innovative product design. And so the first product that we are launching this spring is a SheFly hiking pant and it has a zipper that allows women to easily, safely, and comfortably answer nature's call in the outdoors.
Lisa: And tell us about your zipper Revolution. I've been on your website. I haven't seen the pants in real life, but I have seen photos.
Georgia Grace: That's great. They're coming soon. We just, we're getting our first official prototype back from the factory by the end of this month. So we are very eager to see them head to toe SheFly in real life. And basically, if you try to envision this hiking pant, it has a zipper in the normal spot that you use to get your pants on and off and then a second zipper that starts just below it and reaches all the way behind. And so, it's really great because women can control the size and location of the space they need to create, it works with layers. So we're also... our next product launch will be underwear and long underwear / leggings that have flaps that line up underneath and so ultimately, women are able to relieve themselves outside without having to expose any skin in harsh elements or in areas with lots of people, etc.
Lisa: So how do they work? You just kind of unzip them and squat while keeping your pants on?
Georgia Grace: Exactly. It's pretty weird to wrap your head around until you realize that it's exactly how men typically use their pants, same idea for women. And the way that the zipper is positioned and the way that you can open it for us small or as large of the space you would like in any different location means that a variety of stances will work for you while using your SheFlys.
Lisa: So what do you mean a variety of stances?
Georgia Grace: Well, one thing that we came to realize throughout our kind of idea validation stage was that not all women have the same squat, the same pee stance. And so no matter what your angle, no matter how tall you are, no matter if you're leaning against something or not, it will work for you. I even... the first pair I ever sewed myself last December in my friends attic on her old sewing machine, I actually tested for the first time indoors in an indoor bathroom. So, you know, bar night they even work.
Lisa: Oh my gosh. [laughs]
Georgia Grace: Yeah revolutionary, right?
Lisa: Yes. So tell us about the thinking behind... you mentioned that your mission is to promote inclusivity, and so tell us why pants are the vehicle in which you're kind of spreading that message.
Georgia Grace: So the female market buying power right now is huge and the outdoor apparel industry especially right now is the fastest growing category within apparel. And so by using pants, which are something that you use every day, to address arguably one of the most basic needs, right, like as humans we eat and excrete, that's what we do. And so by using pants to allow women to do that with the same capability that men currently have in the outdoors ,we’re starting a movement that is not just bringing this physical product of pants but also introducing a social movement as well. And that's kind of the part that we've seen people latching onto the most when we pitch. A lot of people bring up the Me Too movement and the way that Thinx revolutionized periods and the way that there are so many other female owned primarily outdoor companies who are trying to change this. And our apparel is a great start because when it comes to answering nature's call outside, the problem is not our anatomy. It's our clothing. And so this is kind of the next step into helping bring that social and physical change around.
Lisa: That's super cool. How did you get this idea?
Georgia Grace: So I spent a summer working as a glacier guide on the Mendenhall Glacier in Alaska and I was spending anywhere from 8 to 12 hours a day up on the ice and was usually one of only a handful of female Glacier guides. So some days I was working with all men. And I think using the bathroom is hard enough outside if you're like walking your dog or something, let alone if you are literally on top of a glacier for hours at a time with no bathroom. And so while the guys flies allowed them to just kind of turn around, answer Nature's call, get back to work. I found myself having to like hop over crevasses, try to find a big chunk of ice to shield myself, take off multiple layers because it's freezing temperatures, do my thing, put it all back on and get back to work. And it was a huge waste of time, it was a waste of energy, and often times after I would just be freezing for hours after because I had exposed so much skin in order to do so and by the end of a few months of this I was like, there has got to be a better way to do this because the only solution I had thought of thus far was just not drinking water. So dehydrating myself. And that's when I started thinking about, well what if my pants just let me do this easier?
And I kind of kept this idea to myself for a while and then slowly begin to bring it up when I was hiking with friends. I met one of my co-founders Bianca the next summer. We were both interning at Goldman Sachs in Salt Lake City. And we go to the same college, Middlebury College, but we had actually never met each other there. We ended up meeting out in Utah and we bonded over this love of time outside the office exploring all of the national parks. And I have a really vivid memory of being on the 18 mile hike with her, it was Mount Timpanogos, and I just ended up telling her about this and she was instantly on board. She spends a lot of time outside as well. And so we just kind of took it from there.
Charlotte, our other co-founder, is also a very avid outdoors woman and does a lot of rock climbing and she's experienced a lot of trouble with rock climbing specifically. She's been in situations where a friend has been like stranded on a ledge at dusk because she took off her harness use the bathroom and then the person who was on belay didn't know that, and... so anyway when she was like wait, you can do this and it's harness compatible? She was psyched.
Lisa: Wow, that is quite the real problem that you're providing a solution to.
Georgia Grace: It is, and it's interesting because I think for me when I started out with this idea it was it was pretty much based on this cold weather comfort. And since then we found all these other pain points in the process from you know, a lot of having to hike off trail to find privacy, to this actual safety, like people have died trying to use the bathroom outside, which is absolutely ridiculous.
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Lisa: This is a topic we don't really talk about all that much, but it is difficult and cold when you're out in very, very cold, exposed terrain to like, have to pull your pants down kind of sucks.
Iris: Yeah, especially when you're doing something really technical like Georgia was glacier guiding, or like if you have a climbing harness on, or tons and tons of layers because you're really cold. It can be almost dangerous to have to pee which is crazy.
Lisa: Yeah, so thanks to SheFly. There's about to be another way. Especially like making equality through product design, that's a really interesting concept. And I mean, so many products out there, like, apparently cars are designed for men and if cars were designed for like the scale of women and women's hands and arm length and height the cars would all be a lot smaller and different.
Iris: Yeah, the people that are behind our product design basically determine how our entire world is set up. So product design is incredibly important and when you only have men behind it, or you only have able-bodied people behind product design, then you're not taking into account all the many various different people that are going to come into contact with it. So it’s something to think about.
Iris: Let's get back to Georgia.
Lisa: Let's see what else Georgia has to say.
Lisa; Yeah, so you guys met, you you said you and Bianca met at Goldman Sachs?
Georgia Grace: We did. Yeah, we met, that was summer of 2017. And then we thought about this idea for a long time, but we were both had full course loads and so we didn't know when we were going to have the chance to build it out. And then my last... my winter semester in January of 2018 I took a class at Middlebury called Middlebury entrepreneurs. We have a special winter semester where you just take one class for one month. And it's a class where you come in with this idea and you have one month to build it out. So you learn all about your idea, how to market, how to make a business plan. And so that was extremely helpful in giving us, like, the space and the time and the support network to really make this from just an idea to a reality.
Lisa: Wow, and so are you guys graduated?
Georgia Grace: Yes, Bianca graduated right after that class in February, and this is another funny story. Bianca had a really great job lined up back home in New Mexico. She helped... I was moving dorm rooms and I was about to leave on a service education trip in Haiti. And so we said goodbye to each other. We said we'll Skype next week, you from your job, me from back at Middlebury and I turned off my phone, went to Haiti for a week, came back, turned it on. I have like 30 messages from Bianca. My phone is blowing up, and she's like “I didn't get on the plane. I didn't go to work. If we're going to build a business. We should do it the right way like, We're onto something, let's do this” and it was amazing. And Charlotte hopped on board soon after, Charlotte's in her last semester at Middlebury. And so yeah, that's where we've been.
Lisa: Wow, are you guys all studying the same thing?
Georgia Grace: No, we all come from very different backgrounds. So I majored in international politics and economics, Bianca majored in geography, and Charlotte is currently studying philosophy and religion and some art too. So it's really great to have a lot of disciplines behind this and I think it helps with our creative process a lot.
Lisa: Yeah. And so let's talk about that, because so many of our listeners are in the creative industry. How's this going? How’s launching a company, coming up with a logo, a website? How's it going for you guys? Is it fun?
Georgia Grace: It's so much. Yeah. It's a lot of fun, definitely frustrating at times, but definitely worth it. And I'd say most of those things, the logo, the website, those are all things that we first took a stab at ourselves and pretty much pushed our limits and then have since started bringing new people on board to help us with that. So we've now grown our team up to six people and it's been really great to meet other people in the industry to seek advice from mentors as we try to build out these creative platforms and ways of marketing ourselves. One thing we learned in the Middlebury entrepreneurs class is that every good startup should have a hacker, a hipster, and a hustler. And so Bianca, Charlotte, and I each kind of fulfill one of those and so, so far we found that it's a really great balance in the way that we problem solve and the way that we kind of think about things.
Lisa: That is hilarious, tell me about this hacker, hipster, hustler, why these three things?
Georgia Grace: Sure, so I don't know. I can't remember who came up with this, but basically the idea is that your hacker is a person who is very into operations. So they're all into efficiency, how they can make processes work better. Usually they know some coding. They're really into building out the tech side of things and they're very fast workers and very detail-oriented, and that's definitely Bianca. And then the Hipster is probably the most creative person. They're constantly thinking of new ways to do something and how your product looks, not only by itself, but in connection to other things, how it appears to different groups of people and they're kind of like the philosophy or like the meaning behind a product or a service and that one's definitely Charlotte. And then the Hustler is someone who's very action oriented, super persistent, always trying to sell it, pitch to everyone. I think my family's really tired of me at this point and most of my friends. And they're pretty tied into what the bigger goal is and how each step can tie into that goal with specific asks and things like that. So I like to be on the people side of things with pitching and yeah, networking, things like that. So that's how we all the puzzle pieces kind of fit together. But being the fact that we're a startup I would still say that we're all kind of covering all of the bases still, a little bit, but we try to specialize in that way.
Lisa: That’s so rad.
Georgia Grace: Yeah.
Lisa: I love that. I've never heard that and I think it's really fun and applicable.
Georgia Grace: Isn't it great? Yeah, when I heard it I was like, oh sweet now I know I need to find a hacker and hipster and we're set.
Lisa: So, what's your what's your goal for SheFly? I know that's a huge big loaded question. But what's your pants Revolution looking like in your mind?
Georgia Grace: We just had a three-hour team call last night and it was looking like a lot of different things. But I think that ultimately... so this spring we're launching our crowdfunding campaign on iFundWomen which is a platform similar to Kickstarter only way, way better because it has a pay-it-forward model, it has flexible funding, there's coaching. And it's really set up to try to disrupt the fact that women usually receive two to six percent of VC funding. And so there's this crowdfunding as a way to build your network out while also raising funds. And so actually, if you're listening to this podcast right now, shameless plug, you can go to iFundWomen and see our live SheFly campaign. But once we finish that, we're going to have the first round of SheFly hiking pants actually out and with women. We've gone through 40 different iterations of these pants and they've been tested by dozens of women. So we're really excited about them. And after that we'll have our eShop set up so you can buy online. We're trying to launch our underwear and our leggings / long underwear, which we will call Long Janes, in the fall and besides selling online, because we are patent-pending, we've had a lot of interest expressed by different companies who want to try to license the technology that we've developed in different types of pants.
So if you think about pants, the possibilities are truly endless. And every time we pitch we hear people saying like, “oh my kid needs this in their ski suit” or “oh, I work in international Aid. I'm always in developing countries. There's never a bathroom. This would be great for me” or “I'm a field scientist. I'm always working outside. I need this.” Or women on the front lines of the military, or even just traveling like think about the way that your next pit stop could be different instead of stopping getting out of the car opening all the doors on your car and trying to squat as low as possible so as to not be seen, you can now make that a whole lot easier with a pair of SheFlys. So in terms of long-term goals, it's definitely to be selling online, to be licensing our patent out for use in a variety of sectors, and hopefully to be a little bit in retail in brick-and-mortar stores as well.
Georgia Grace: Just small stuff, you know, nothing big. [laughs]
Lisa: Yeah. Nothing big. You guys are going hard.
Georgia Grace: We're trying. It's go big or go home I think.
Lisa: Wow. That's amazing. I'm so excited for you guys.
Georgia Grace: Thanks, we are too.
Lisa: And what do you think is an interesting thing about just the nature of Revolution and what you guys are doing. Are you coming up against naysayers or are people pretty excited about your new ideas?
Georgia Grace: Hmm. So at the beginning I wondered a lot about that because I had kind of... we had kind of grown this company out on a in a bit of a bubble in Vermont, right, in Middlebury, where people are pretty psyched about anything related to the outdoors and are also very liberal. And I didn't know how we would be received when we started to have a wider audience. But even when we… we had a pitching event this summer and we it was called Road Pitch and so we pitched to 40 primarily male motorcyclists who rode their motorcycles to this location. And we won, and it was like wait. We just won over an audience of people who are technically not even going to be using our product. And so that was a huge milestone for us. And the more we talk about it I'd say the number one response we get is, “I can't believe this doesn't already exist.” That is overwhelmingly the response. And I think the few times we have come up against adversity it's had to do with us all being very young and very new at this. And Bianca, actually, she has a little acronym she made up, it spells PEE. And the three things that we have found to be most important in creating the startup and in trying to create a zipper revolution and pioneering new pants is the first p is persistence. So no matter what you keep going. The second letter e is encouragement, we would not have been able to do this with all of the mentors, all of the family and friends and support networks in the outdoor industry that we've made. And the last e is evolution. So even when something is not working, we still find a way to make it better. And I think that also applies on a larger scale to any Revolution you need persistence, you need encouragement, and you need to keep making progress through that evolution.
Lisa: Yes, you're putting the evolution in revolution.
Georgia Grace: [laughs] There you go.
Lisa: That's awesome.
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Lisa: That's cool. When you hear “I can't believe this doesn't already exist.” It's like. it just integrates right in the world where it should.
Iris: Yeah, the mother of Entrepreneurship is solving problems and a lot of failed businesses are because they're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. So when you're hearing tons of people, even men, saying wow, I can't believe this product doesn't exist yet. That's a really good sign that you're on the right track.
Iris: Putting together the Pants Pants Revolution.
Lisa: Pants Pants Revolution.
Iris: She said every good startup needs a hacker a hipster and a hustler. Which one are you?
Lisa: Oh my gosh. That's... I mean, I don't have the advantage of having three of me.
Iris: Yeah, there’s only one of you, are you all three?
Lisa: You know, I think I'm a hustler.
Lisa: Above all else. Yeah. I can really really make anything. I started the company off a clapped-out left 10 years ago. So I need a hipster. I'm in the market for a hipster. We don't really have a hipster in-house.
Iris: Let's go back to Georgia.
Lisa: Cool. Well what else have I not asked you that you would love to tell our audience?
Georgia Grace: One thing that has been interesting for us in thinking about the outdoor industry and about apparel in general is how many other issues there are in closing besides this ability to relieve yourself outside if you're female. A lot of women have talked to us about how the outdoors can sometimes be a place that only has one narrative that tends to be male dominated and also tends to be very white. And so we hope that SheFly, our hiking pants, are just one product in a line of many many that will help to open the space up to anyone, no matter what you look like, who you are, where you come from, whether you have experience in the outdoors or not. If you have the right gear, that's one less hurdle to kind of take out of the equation.
And another thing that has been brought to our attention is just how the design... like pants were designed for men and haven't really been significantly changed since then. Up until the 1940s women could be jailed for wearing pants in public and it wasn't until 1972, I think, that schools and universities allowed women to wear pants and shorts there. So when you think about pants in general and in their use by women, it's a relatively young thing. I think it was in the early 1990s that the first time pants were worn on the Senate floor by a female. So this is a very young industry which means there's a lot of room for improvement and we've seen that with the way that woman's pants are sized, with the way that our pockets are, or the lack of pockets I should probably say.
Georgia Grace: So we're definitely trying to take all of that into consideration as we continue evolving, but I guess I would also just challenge other people out there to think about your design, think about who it's for, and actually ask the opinions of the people who will be using your product. I think there's a lot of things we're missing out on by not always being open to female-centric design and supporting women in business and I think this is a huge turning point and we're really excited to be a part of it.
Lisa: That's so very cool. That's… it's really interesting to think of pants as a young industry, but I guess you're totally right. I've never thought about it.
Georgia Grace: Yeah, it's weird, right?
Lisa: Yeah super weird.
Georgia Grace: Yeah, so I don't know, we're envisioning a day where women don't have to think twice about using the bathroom outside and all pants have functionality for all people.
Lisa: That's amazing, the world needs more revolutionaries like you guys.
Georgia Grace: Well, thank you. It means a lot coming from someone like yourself.
Lisa: Well, thank you so much for being on the podcast. Where can people find you online?
Georgia Grace: Thank you. You can find us at www.sheflyapparel.com. We also have the same handle on Facebook Twitter and Instagram. It's just @SheFlyApparel. If you go to our website, www.sheflyapparel.com/ambassadors, you can sign up for our new ambassador program that we just launched. And we are also creating a collection of pee stories of troubles in the outdoors. So if you have one, definitely send it to us, you can email us or just push the contact button on our website, but the stories that we have coming in so far are hilarious and also pretty awareness-raising I would say if that's a phrase. I guess it is now.
Lisa: Do you want to hear a really gross pee story of mine?
Georgia Grace: Yeah, please!
Lisa: This happened very recently, in my 30s. So I wear bibs when I skin in the backcountry and they have... they're all ripped up and I have a snowmobile and it has ripped up and created giant holes kind of around my ankles. Like right above my snowboard boot and so I was trying to pee in like tons of powder with a very large group. So I like scurried behind it this big tree and I mean, it was like three feet of powder and I had tried to stomp down a little area and I was just really struggling. And then I didn't realize it but I was peeing through one of the giant holes above my snowboard boot.
Georgia Grace: No!
Lisa: And it all went down into my snowboard boot and into my socks. And then every time I was skinning for the rest of the day and it was like squoosh foot every time I took a step.
Georgia Grace: Oh boy at least pee is sterile, right?
Lisa: Where was SheFly then?
Georgia Grace: [laughs] Yeah, and when we were going through the kind of like idea validation stage, we release this survey and got hundreds of responses in less than 24 hours. And the statistic we have from that is that one in three women have had a bathroom accident outside in the past year, similar to yours, where they've literally peed their pants. Because their gear didn't work, they couldn't find a bathroom. Whatever the reason, so, this is one of many. Can we publish this?
Lisa: You sure can, you sure can. And you know, I think like for outerwear, like oh my gosh, SheFly technology on bibs?
Georgia Grace: Yeah. There you go.
Lisa: Bring it on because it is really complex. It's a lot to work with.
Georgia Grace: The physics are truly incredible.
Lisa: Right and even the danger of having to take your pack off in the backcountry. If you're you know, like it's a lot. It's all just a lot of material when you have a jacket and bibs and base layers and you know backpack. It's just a lot of stuff. So I'm really excited for what you guys are creating. I think it's just awesome.
Georgia Grace: Thank you.
Lisa: Yeah, I'm ready. I'm ready to buy a pair when they're ready to come out.
Georgia Grace: Okay, you'll be first to know.
Lisa: Cool. Well, thanks so much for being on the podcast and for making the world a better place for everyone.
Georgia Grace: Oh, thank you. And I want to say thank you for having us on the only podcast whose ads I actually don't fast-forward through. So this is a dream come true for me as well.
Lisa: Maybe we'll do maybe we'll do a SheFly ad or something.
Georgia Grace: I see collaboration in the future.
Iris: It’s so crazy how new pants are.
Lisa: It's bananas.
Iris: Pants for women, I mean.
Lisa: Yeah, it's wild like how are you supposed to do high kicks? Cartwheels? Hand stands?
Iris: The splits?
Iris: You can't snowboard in a dress.
Lisa: No, you’d get scooch leg. You wouldn't be able to scooch hard enough. Pants are everything.
Iris: Pants are, so thanks Georgia and the SheFly team for starting this pants Revolution. We can't wait to see what you have in store.
Lisa: That's right. I'm never peeing in my boot again.
Iris: And thanks to Lisa for sharing that wonderful story of her pee experience.
Lisa: One of many.
Iris: Apparently you're not alone. So that's great.
Lisa: That's great. Where can we follow them?
Iris: You can learn more about SheFly at SheFlyapparel.com as well as on Instagram @SheFlyApparel. Yeah, and I believe they just launched on iFundWomen their crowd funding campaign. So you should be able to find it through their social channels and go give them some support for the pants Revolution.
Lisa: Yes. I find that the best way to support any brand you care about whether it's women's brands or whatever or causes is to like buy their shit. So yeah go shopping.
Iris: And the best way to support women's podcasts is to leave a review on iTunes!
Lisa: That's right. You just go to the iTunes, you go to your podcast button you go to the Outside by Design podcast and there's a button where you can push stars and you can leave us a comment.
Iris: Yeah, and we love to hear what you think about the show. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcast because we have new episodes dropping every Thursday.
Lisa: Iris isn't going to get paid unless you leave a review.
Iris: Oh, no.
Lisa: Just kidding.
Iris: And next month… this is the end of our Revolution series and we'll start a new word next month.
Lisa: But we're not going to tell you what it is. You have to tune in to learn what the April word of the month is.
Iris: So we'll see you next week. Bye-bye.