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Episode 95: Our Wild Backyard with Peggie dePasquale of Wyoming Wilderness Association

We're joined this week by Peggie dePasquale, Associate Director of Wyoming Wilderness Association. Peggie talks about how COVID hit her organization, the challenges of disseminating information in a rural area, and the controversy surrounding wilderness areas and mechanized recreation. This is a perfect Level 3 conversation, listen in!

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Episode Transcript

​Iris: Hello, outdoor industry friends. Welcome back to another episode of Outside by Design. I'm Iris from WHEELIE. And I am so excited to introduce our guest today. Her name is Peggie dePasquale and she is the associate director at Wyoming Wilderness Association. So she is a wonderful example of a level three guest, working to level up her community through her work at the wilderness association.

And Peggie is here to chat with Lisa about how brands and nonprofits can work together, how COVID-19 has impacted the work that she and other nonprofits do, and how to use film as a tool to spread your message to protect wild lands. Peggie also gets into the nitty gritty discussion about wilderness areas and motorized access like snowmobiles as well as mountain biking. So this is a really good one and I hope you enjoy!

Lisa: All right, Peggie. Thank you so much for being on our podcast today.

Peggie: Thank you so much for having me on. I'm really excited to be a part of this.

Lisa: The very, very first question we ask everyone is to describe where you are at and what you're looking at.

Peggie: Right now I'm sitting in one of my many home offices, AKA my bedroom, looking out at the Wyoming-Idaho border, which is where the Palisades, the greater Palisades area is. And I'm looking out on those mountains, and those mountains are especially special to me and my work because they are one of the largest wild landscapes not yet protected as wilderness in the lower 48.

Lisa: Gotcha. And so you... I want to ask you about your personal journey as a human being, and also the work that you do at Wyoming wilderness association. And I'm curious, kind of how, how those two worlds come together. You as a human and you as the associate director of the Wyoming Wilderness Association.

Peggie: Okay, let me give it my best shot. So I grew up in the mountains of Western Maine and although that area seemed really wild to me and I had a lot of opportunity to just get out and play in natural places, it wasn't until I came out West after college to work at the Teton Science Schools in Jackson, Wyoming, that I started to understand the value of our nation's public lands and how lucky we all are to have them accessible and protected and kind of at our fingertips, they belong to all of us. I call them our wild backyard.

And since moving out West, I cannot begin to tell you the myriad of experiences I've had that have allowed me to grow and build this appreciation and respect for them. And I'll say that I showed up in Jackson, first and foremost, as a recreationist. I was a really big skier, I got into mountain biking and then whitewater kayaking.

And through those uses I connected to the landscapes and realized how precious they were and realized how important it was to protect them. And then on the other hand, I was working at the Teton Science School, working with students of all ages, um, teaching them about ecological importance and the nuances of the greater Yellowstone ecosystem, which is one of the most intact ecosystems left in the world. And living here in the Teton area, we're right in the heart of it.

And the two, kind of, paths, recreation and then education on the environment, really grew this environmental ethic that I carried into my master's degree, which was natural science education and environment and natural resources. The latter was really policy and social science based.

And really, I kind of stumbled into the work of wilderness advocacy. Since getting my, my dog Torii, I realized that Grand Teton National Park was not as accessible since they ask that dogs are not allowed in the boundaries, which I totally support and understand. So I was seeking out landscapes where she was welcome and wilderness is open to dogs. So I started exploring the Jedediah Smith wilderness and the Teton wilderness and the Grovont wilderness, all that encompassed the Jackson Hole Valley, and really just fell in love with these wild places. So I was really excited when I got hired on at that time as the Bridger Teton Community Organizer for Wyoming Wilderness Association in 2018, and really started to dig into all of the issues that, wilderness advocacy includes and all of the different stakeholders that are sitting at the table, having the discussions that I've been having for the last... going on three years.

Lisa: And a lot of our audience is... they're creatives. They work in marketing, they work in branding and they work in manufacturing, you know, for more recreational, hard goods and soft goods companies in the outdoor industry. And how do you, how do you see those worlds overlapping with nonprofit? Like, do you end up working with brands a lot or... how can brands kind of have an appreciation for the work that you're doing? How did, how did those worlds fit together?

Peggie: Absolutely. I think that so often we kind of silo these different issues, whether it's Industry or environmental concerns or all of these things into their own kind of categories and have these conversations in isolation.

But I think that the recreation industry and environmentalism have to go hand in hand because these companies, whether it's Patagonia or North Face, are really kind of selling this experience with the brand that they're promoting. And I see that some of the most incredible Wildlands advocates are also the ones that are wearing these brands and really kind of seeking the experience that is becoming so much the, the gold standard for what it means to get out and explore.

Lisa: I fully agree. There's such an integration between having, having the gear and using the gear and, you know, needing a space to do so.

Peggie: And I will say, I think Patagonia has really led the charge on not just promoting, getting out and being out in these places, but also this ethic of al of our responsibility to protect them. And Patagonia is one of our biggest supporters through grants, but also through their myriad of support systems. They have a Catchafire volunteer system. So if I need a flyer made for our youth ambassadors for wilderness program, we don't have to pay a graphic designer to do that. There are volunteers, hundreds of them, that Patagonia has rallied to do this work on a volunteer, pro bono basis.

And then they also have this Action Works platform, which... we can boost something on our social media and reach the community that we have access to through whatever algorithms, Facebook or Instagram is working through. But Patagonia takes those posts and boosts them out to their community and makes our reach a lot further.

So I think Patagonia is one of those companies that really leads the charge and I'm really excited to see how other companies are able to follow suit and really leverage their communities and the buy in that they have to help groups like ours impact change that we need to see on this… in the world.

Lisa: Yeah. That's a beautiful kind of symbiotic relationship going on there.

Peggie: I agree. I think it's pretty cool. And I think that the sky's the limit to see how this can evolve and kind of help both sides of that relationship grow and become stronger.

Lisa: Absolutely. How has, how has the nonprofit work that you're doing… how have you guys been affected through COVID-19?

Peggie: Well, I often. Say how lucky I am and our team at Wyoming Wilderness Association is during all of this, because in many ways, we're not a service based organization. I'm also on the board of an arts council and they are not able to do in person classes and all of this programming that used to bring in income for the organization has been gone.

And although Wyoming Wilderness Association, hasn't lost our income flow - we are funded through generous donors and grants - our work has been significantly impacted. So, so much of advocacy is in-person meetings, relationship building, going to public comments and having kind of this in-person relationship, whether it's with representatives or with stakeholders on your side or on the other side of an issue.

And that has all been moved virtually. Which although has been largely really successful, and I have to celebrate Zoom and other platforms that allow us still to have those connections, it has taken a lot of that personal connection out of the conversation.

Another big impact is that we work a lot to connect people with the landscapes that we're trying to protect, because we believe that experience within a wild place can result in an increased likelihood of a person fighting on his behalf. So we do wild land outings for free across the state to get people into the Palisades Wilderness Study Area on the border of Idaho and Wyoming to talk about the different issues arising there between recreation and conservation or down into wilderness study areas or recommended wilderness areas, whether on BLM land in the Southern part of the state or on the Big Horn National Forest kind of in North-central, Eastern Wyoming. And so we're constantly trying to motivate people to get behind our mission by having experiences on the landscape with them. And this summer one by one, we've had to cancel almost all of the outings that we had planned.

We also run a program called the Youth Ambassadors for Wilderness, which is a program designed for local high school youth to cultivate the next generation of wilderness leaders. And the program is built on pillars of stewardship and advocacy. So we've worked with the national forest to do boots on the ground stewardship projects, to help the forest do solitude monitoring, campsite monitoring, clearing logs out of trails and brush out of trails, cleaning up trash and doing so much of the work that the forest just doesn't have the capacity to do across all the acreage that they're responsible for. And then we also work in advocacy and teach them how to lobby representatives for the change they want to see, how politics work, and how writing a comment or giving a public comment works and really empowering them that even though they might not be able to go in and vote for their representatives or vote for the issues that are on the table, their voice means as much as anyone else's in these conversations. And that has been kind of a pride and joy of Wyoming Wilderness Association, yet, this year, COVID-19 impacted every facet of the program from transportation to meeting with representatives to how do we get these students to the trail head we want them to be at in a safe manner. And then work out on a backpacking trip with group meals and all of the things that go into kind of a shared experience in the back country with all of the concerns that COVID-19 posed. And so, kind of in the 11th hour, when all of these confounding things were piling up, we had to choose to postpone that until 2021 and just put it off for a year.

And so that's just. Those are just two examples of the long list of the ways - or I guess I gave you three - three examples of the way that COVID is impacting our team. And so I think so often it's obviously impacting those organizations like healthcare organizations on the front lines of this pandemic, but the trickle down is huge. And Wyoming wilderness association is feeling it greatly.

Lisa: And yeah. I mean, I can't even imagine. I think another interesting thing that your organization faces is also kind of - and I can speak from experience because we're based out of Montana - communicating across rural lands. Like, Wyoming is massive. And getting information to people who aren't in a large city center. And so like, how do you navigate that as well with COVID-19?

Peggie: That’s a great question. And an example that’s right on the forefront of my mind is the Shoshone national forest , the oldest national forest in the country, is going through a travel management plan process right now that they started back in 2015 and got it rolling. And then in 2017, because of lack of resources, et cetera, it went dormant. And for years we've been saying this really needs to happen, these management protocols need to be put in place and we need to come up with a strong plan for how to manage motorized use on this forest. And there's kind of been crickets and things have been pretty quiet.

And then all of a sudden in the middle of this pandemic, the Shoshone National Forest announced that they were going to release their environmental assessment for the travel management plan. And all of these groups who have for years been saying, “we need to get this plan out and figure it out” are all of a sudden, like, “but not now!” We do not have the ability to organize the public and involve the public in these important management guidelines that will impact this landscape for years, maybe even decades to come.

And one of the biggest concerns that we have is the fact that the tribes of Wyoming and the tribes that have a historical use of this landscape do not have the capacity, being impacted significantly more by this pandemic than other populations, to meaningfully engage. And so we've asked repeatedly for it to be postponed and the forest has pushed back and said, “no, you know, we're going to do virtual meetings and we're going to send things electronically to everyone. So everyone can still engage. Don't worry.” And our feeling is actually no, like, virtually engaging is not an option for everyone. That is a privilege to have access to technology. And in a kind of rural state like Wyoming, like you said, where we're spread out, people do not have access to strong internet and do not have access to computers as you might expect in a more urban area. And we're very concerned with the fallout of what kind of virtual public engagement will look like for plans for wild landscapes, like those on the Shoshone national forest.

Lisa: Yeah. What do... I mean, do you guys have a strategy to try to mitigate some of that? Because, you know, yeah. I know how real that can be. To not have access or not even have cell service or internet and wifi.

Peggie: Of course. I actually don't have cell service at my house, and I have pretty spotty wifi, so I'm glad that we're in good connection right now. But I think that the thing that we're pushing is that most of these public processes should wait, at least until we have a better understanding of what the timeline of this pandemic looks like. I think if this plan on the Shoshone, for example, sat on the shelf for years, why are they in such a rush to move it forward right now while we're all grappling with the, the issues that and limitations that come with a global pandemic?

And I think that that kind of goes across the board. Let's all just take a deep breath and step back and stop trying to push things through in this time when we can not engage in person. The other thing that we've asked for is if they do want to push it forward, let's give more time. So at least people aren't limited to a 30 day comment period. Let's give 60 or even 90 days for people to be involved, because maybe that will allow for at least some of these communications to get through that might be lost in the shuffle if the timeline is much shorter.

Lisa: Yeah. And it's interesting too, because I'm sure you're reliant upon donations and a lot of people... I mean, the world is facing economic uncertainty. Are you finding that people are reticent to donate during, during a pandemic?

Peggie: So we are finding, especially with grants, that grants are kind of redirecting their focus towards those frontline organizations working to give PPE or whatever it is that is the obvious timely need of people on the front lines. So we've had a few grants redirect and a couple donors fall through, and it's really hard to feel... like, we don't know what those organizations or what those people are going through. So to say, reach out and really be pushy and say, “we need your money regardless,” doesn't really fall in line with our values or what feels right. But at the same time, we see that our mission to protect these wild lands are as important if not more important than ever. Because the current administration, every chance they get, are passing executive orders or making changes to NEPA or pulling out projections from under our feet that we've been able to kind of rely on and fall back on.

And it's like drinking out of the fire hose when you really step back and look at all of the different threats that are happening all at once while the majority of the world is distracted by this pandemic. Yet Wyoming Wilderness Association is trying really hard not to lose sight of the fact that we need to ensure that these public lands that ensure our economy and our public health and our mental health are all still there for us once kind of the, the blindfold of this pandemic has been pulled back.

Lisa: I think that's really, really eloquently said and very exciting to, I don't know, maintain your values through, I guess, tumultuous times.

Peggie: Definitely tumultuous times right now.

Lisa: Big time. And we're seeing a trend... we're seeing a trend where a lot of the brands we work with are no longer doing events and they're taking those budgets and making films. And so we are actually busier with film work than we've ever been. And, I know Wyoming Wilderness Association is also taking on a film right now. Do you want to talk about that?

Peggie: Absolutely. So we have also loved putting on events for people for years, that's, as I mentioned with these outings or these ambassador program, in-person programming is I think what we do best. But film has always been kind of one of the tools that we implement to push our mission of protecting Wild Wyoming forward.

We did a film called Shoshone Wild about the Shoshone National Forest back about six or seven years ago. That's really powerful. And we just released a film called Death of the Desert about a wilderness study area called Adobe Town. And we're currently working on a film that is very much close to my heart as I'm leading the charge on it, called the Palisades Project.

And we came up with that name, the Palisades Project, because we're not coming out and saying, this is what needs to happen. We're coming out and saying, this is a project, there's work to do. Because the Palisades Wilderness Study Area is one half of a quarter of a million acre landscape called the Greater Palisades Area and it's along the Wyoming and Idaho border. And it was designated back in 1984 with the Wyoming Wilderness Act. And it was designated as a wilderness study area to preserve its wilderness character for future inclusion in the national wilderness preservation system, which is designated wilderness. But because they weren't sure of the oil and gas potential on the landscape and they weren't ready to give it that big W designation right then and there, they gave it this other designation called the wilderness study area, which was never meant to be in place forever. They also said that some of the existing uses like snowmobiling and heli skiing could continue until they decided whether or not to make it wilderness.

Of course, you know, fast forward 36 years and snowmobiling in 1984 and 2020 look very different. Snowmobiles are going all the way into the heart of the landscape. Heli skiing has continued to happen on the landscape and the man who owns that business feels very strongly that he shouldn't lose his business because this land gets designated as wilderness.

The other thing that's happened because there wasn't clear language about it, is that mountain bikes are allowed on all non-motorized trails within the landscape because they're considered non-motorized. But of course, mountain bikes are also a mechanized form of travel that would not be allowed if the landscape were created wilderness or were designated as wilderness.

And so when I took my job in 2018, I came into the tail end of a process called the Wyoming Public Lands Initiative, which was a county by county attempt to try and figure out what to do with the 45 wilderness study areas like the Palisades across Wyoming. And the Palisades and Teton County was really where our community and stakeholders came into gridlock, because at the same time, all of these uses have become established on this landscape, the landscape has the intent of being managed for possible future inclusion in the wilderness preservation system. And so when you go out onto the landscape, there was just a wilderness inventory and it is as wild as it gets. Luckily none of these uses have so far impacted the things that would allow it to be put into this better protection.

And so the Palisades Project film is really asking these stakeholders to come back to the table and come up with a solution for this landscape. And as a wilderness advocacy group, we believe that there has to be room within this quarter of a million acres for us to designate a large chunk of its wild heart as wilderness.

So often people say, “Oh, you work for Wyoming Wilderness Association. You must be anti-mountain bike or anti-snowmobile or anti-heli skiing.” And that is so far from the truth and has simplified this conversation to the detriment of the landscape and kind of pulled the rug out of a lot of the meaningful conversations that this film is really pushing both sides of this conversation to really have. Instead of remaining in gridlock and saying, all right, this is going to be a fight to the death, let the best man win, let's actually sit down and figure out how to come up with solutions and protect the wild heart of the landscape and possibly find room for compromise around some of these uses that have been allowed to establish over the last 35 plus years.

Lisa: Wow. That's a lot. It's really interesting. Why… I mean, something that I've always been really curious about and I respect wilderness areas and also loved to snowmobile and mountain bike. Why, why are mountain bikes considered like, damaging to wilderness areas?

Peggie: That's a really good question. So I think one of the biggest misconceptions around wilderness is that mountain bikes aren't allowed because they are a bigger impact than horses, for example, or that they're a bigger impact than back country skiing, for example. And I think the same goes for snowmobiles, but I think the value of wilderness is that texting these landscapes for their intrinsic value. And one of my mentors has said it best is that humans are tinkerers. We like to see how we can change and improve things or make them better. And I think that whether it's mountain bike trails or snowmobile technology, we're growing faster and faster and faster, and wilderness has this potential to set a very small percentage of our landscapes aside and say, okay, let's see what we can do and how we can evolve these really fun and exciting uses over here, but leave these landscapes as they are for future generations.

And as we tinker and as we change landscapes and have these impacts on landscapes, I think that there's value to keep at least a small percentage of it as it is, intact as it was before we were here with all of these kind of post-industrial revolution technologies.

If you think about it, a lot of the things that we're fighting over today are in the very recent history, even an issue like mountain biking wasn’t even on the radar back in 1964 when the wilderness act passed. And it's pretty crazy to see how quickly a use becomes central to a conversation about something that's going to probably outlast us all. And that I think is really the value in protecting these wild landscapes as they are.

Something else is that so often we kind of categorize ourselves as, okay, I'm a back country skier, and I only have access to this percent of land. And I'm a mountain biker and I only have this many miles of trails. And I think that that kind of disregards the fact that we're all human and we're all part of the human impact and the human situation on this planet. And when you think of it, instead of thinking of yourself as one of these uses, but part of the human impact, you see that when the percentages come out in that wash, wilderness is less than 3% of the United States, of the lower 48 at least. Less than 3%.

And most people, when you ask them, how much of our country do you think has been designated for this protection that would protect against the majority of human use? And the majority of human impact? People are always like, 5 or 10% at least. And you're like, less than 3%! And when you think about it that way, I think it's a lot easier to get on board with protecting just a little bit more.

Lisa: I agree. That's, you know, that's a much more productive objective, I think, stance to take on it. That there is a place for everyone, but maybe wilderness isn't it.

Peggie: Exactly. And I would say also that, um, I really hope for a solution defined to find opportunities where all uses can continue to a degree, but I think that there's the right place and the right time for the right use. And someone, you know, doesn't move to Detroit and say, where's all the snowmobiling? You know, like, why can't I snowmobile in the city limits of Detroit? This is unfair! I have 0% of this landscape for snowmobiling! Yet people move to the greater Yellowstone ecosystem, which is one of the most intact ecosystems left in the world with so much intrinsic value and so much importance within and of itself and say, why can't I snowmobile in more places? Yet just across the state, in the Big Horn National Forest, there is almost unlimited opportunity for motorized activity.

And I feel like if we could take the step back and realize that not every use has to happen in every place, and of course this place is beautiful and it's drawing people from every corner of society to come and want to live here. Especially as remote work is becoming more and more common, more and more people can flood in to this beautiful place. And yet it doesn't necessarily have the capacity to fill everyone's wants and needs.

Lisa: Mhmm. I feel that. Yeah, I like that. That's, that's... I think a really good perspective to... to a very touchy topic in the outdoor industry and in communities as well.

Peggie: It's crazy. I had no idea how controversial this conversation was when I took my job. As I said, I think I came to this area first and foremost as a recreationist, but at the same time, I don't think it ever occurred to me that my use and what I did for fun in my free time took priority over the health and wellbeing of the landscape that I was seeking to explore.

Lisa: It's definitely like much bigger thinking to hold that perspective for sure. Which I really appreciate.

Peggie: Thank you. I feel like I've gone on a tangent, so I'm sorry if I've gone off track.

Lisa: Oh no, it's super, super interesting. And I think, you know, it does affect... I mean, a lot of our audience is largely mountain bikers and, you know, we're called Wheelie. We obviously love mountain biking. But yeah, we don't need, we don't need a mountain bike everywhere.

Peggie: I just had a friend visiting from Bozeman and she was on a Trailforks and she just kept exclaiming - ‘cause we were choosing what mountain bike rides to go on, and we went on two incredible mountain bike rides, like, you know, climb to 3000 feet, we're out for five hours. Didn't see like barely another person. And she was like, “there's just so many places to go here!” And that was totally not related to the conversation that we had, but I think she hit the nail on the head. There's so much opportunity for mountain biking in this area already. And I think as some of the most privileged people in the world, if you live here and mountain bike, It's wild that we continue to say we need more and more and more. So I'm excited to see how to have productive conversations where first we step back and are grateful for what we have and then come up with realistic solutions for how to make compromise and figure out the path forward.

Lisa: Yeah, that's huge. That's huge. And I like the intention behind it as well. I think that's, that's really beautiful. And like you were saying with COVID, like not making answers now, kind of like taking time and doing it with a lot of thought and a lot of intention.

Peggie: Absolutely. And if, if listeners are interested in learning more about the Palisades Project film, we have a website, where you can watch our promotional video.

We're still trying to get our budget secured to finish this project, which aims to be released this December. And depending on what COVID health guidelines are, I think the release of that could look lots of different ways, but we're really excited to get this message out and really start gaining support for that conversation that we think can happen. If people kind of come to the table with best intentions and a desire to figure it out.

Lisa: Awesome. We will definitely include that link in the show notes. And my last question for you is, what's your advice to someone who works as a photographer or videographer or someone who works as a brand manager, what's your advice to these folks when they approach a nonprofit to try to work with a nonprofit or support a nonprofit?

Peggie: I think my advice to anyone looking to get involved in the work of a nonprofit is to know that the nonprofit came from an identified niche or gap in the work that was already happening. And so often nonprofits are approached with a new project or an idea that the brand or the grant or the donor is really excited about, which can often result in mission drift and a refocusing on something that might be slightly outside of protecting Wyoming public lands. But because we're totally reliant on the funding and support of donors and grants, sometimes we're faced with these hard decisions. Do we do that project since there's money behind it? Or do we turn it down since it's a little bit outside of our mission?

And I would ask brands and donors and grantors that are looking to support nonprofits and get involved in the good work that we're all doing is to really look to the nonprofit and ask, “What is it that you need help with and how can we support the projects that you are already trying to shoulder?” Because believe me, every executive director or organizer that I speak to is not experiencing any sort of boredom from day to day. We have our hands totally full. So I would ask that those looking to get involved and to support us, really ask where we could use their support because there's a lot of incredible work happening right now. And if they could get behind that work, I think we would all gain a lot more momentum and maybe get to solutions and protections and kind of next steps, a lot faster.

Lisa: That's great advice. I bet we'll find a poll quote out of that as well for your post. ‘Cause yeah, that was, that was really well said.

Peggie: Could I just share, um, the other, the other piece of our programming that I think has been very impacted by COVID is Run the Red, which is a foot race designed to get people out into the Red Desert and inspire support of protections for that landscape. That's one of the largest unfenced areas in the lower 48, which is very important to mule deer and pronghorn migrations.

And this year because of COVID, in collaboration with our race directors, we've made a decision to call it off. However that race happens on Wyoming Public Lands Day, which is a day to celebrate all of the public lands we're also incredibly lucky to have. And so Wyoming Wilderness Association and our partners like NOLS and Wyoming Outdoor Council are kind of going back to the drawing board to try and figure out how to celebrate that safely during COVID times, but still get people kind of away from their screens and into this landscape to inspire, inspire support of our work to protect it.

Lisa: Yeah. Are you finding that a lot of... because so many businesses are going online or adapting in a digital format that people are feeling even more drawn to be in these spaces?

Peggie: Absolutely. I think almost every land manager you talk to is experiencing a higher than normal use. I get an update almost every day from the Bridger Teton National Forest that their camping is just overblown and that people are making new campsites.

And I think that as COVID makes being around people harder and a lot of the ways that we used to socialize or decompress have been taken from us because of health concerns, these wild places are becoming a refuge for more and more people. And the impact of the landscape is evident.

At the same time, I think because we are all pressed to try and continue to work virtually, you used to be able to put on a webinar and it would be kind of a cool opportunity for people to engage via screen. But now that everyone is doing it, it’s really hard to get participation on a virtual platform because people I think are so overloaded. And so tired of spending time sitting in a chair or standing in front of a screen.

Lisa: Yeah, it's an interesting time to be in business and be, you know, a nonprofit and just be a human being. And I think, everybody... I like to believe everybody's doing the best they can. And I really love the grace that you're bringing into your thinking.

Peggie: Thank you. I... some days I feel that I'm doing a better job than others. But our team has a saying, we just say “onward!” Because it's really the only, the only direction to go.

Lisa: Totally, totally. Cool. Well, thank you so much for being on our podcast. Where else can people find information about Wyoming Wilderness Association or you, where can people follow you online?

Peggie: So, Wyoming Wilderness Association has a great online presence. You can follow us on Instagram or Facebook or Twitter. And we also have a website,, with information about all of our campaigns and links to the different projects that we're working on. And you can read more about me and my email is up there, so don't hesitate to ever shoot me an email at peggie (with an ie) I'd be happy to talk to anybody more about any of the issues I discussed today and get you involved in some of the projects we're working on.

Lisa: Awesome. Thank you so much.

Peggie: Thank you, Lisa.

Iris: Thank you so much for being here, Peggie. And to all our listeners out there, please visit the show notes to find the Palisades Project, as well as the social links to the Wyoming Wilderness Association.

And if you haven't left us a review in your podcast app yet, please do so, it helps us reach more listeners. You can follow us @wheeliecreative on instagram or find us at And there you'll be able to find transcripts and the rest of our episodes, all the show notes, so many good things.

Please hit us up on Instagram if you have a recommendation for a guest you'd like to hear on the show ,and with that, we will be back next week with another episode. Thanks so much for being here.

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